<div dir="ltr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">You've been sold a lie by the religious cult known as functional<br>programmers.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>"Lars O" is completely right. Disclaimer: I haven't actually learned Haskell. But he's right.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:oberon-request@lists.inf.ethz.ch" target="_blank">oberon-request@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Oberon mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Running a video in Oberon. (Srinivas Nayak)<br>
2. Re: Functional programming style for Oberon? (Lars O)<br>
3. Re: Functional programming style for Oberon? (Lars O)<br>
4. Re: Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon (Lars O)<br>
5. Re: Project Oberon for Mac (Lars O)<br>
6. Re: Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon (Bob Walkden)<br>
7. Re: Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon<br>
(Douglas G. Danforth)<br>
8. (no subject)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 21:56:52 +0530<br>
From: Srinivas Nayak <<a href="mailto:sinu.nayak2001@gmail.com">sinu.nayak2001@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: ETH Oberon and related systems <<a href="mailto:oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch">oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a>><br>
Subject: [Oberon] Running a video in Oberon.<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5692864C.9060406@gmail.com">5692864C.9060406@gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed<br>
<br>
Dear All,<br>
<br>
After a long time of acquaintance with Oberon, last week I finalized to read the Oberon Trilogy.<br>
Though I got to see many good ideas implemented in Oberon, I surprise, if one can run a video in it.<br>
Is running a video or running two videos simultaneously possible in Oberon?<br>
<br>
By Oberon, I mean the version which is described by Oberon Trilogy.<br>
<br>
<br>
With thanks and best regards,<br>
<br>
Yours sincerely,<br>
Srinivas Nayak<br>
<br>
Home: <a href="http://www.mathmeth.com/sn/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.mathmeth.com/sn/</a><br>
Blog: <a href="http://srinivas-nayak.blogspot.in/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://srinivas-nayak.blogspot.in/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 03:24:26 -0600<br>
From: "Lars O" <<a href="mailto:noreply@z505.com">noreply@z505.com</a>><br>
To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <<a href="mailto:oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch">oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Oberon] Functional programming style for Oberon?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:b58f51b23b8627910b518b1e08766b6c.squirrel@gator3286.hostgator.com">b58f51b23b8627910b518b1e08766b6c.squirrel@gator3286.hostgator.com</a>><br>
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<br>
eas lab wrote:<br>
> Some years ago when the OO-paradigm was at it's peek, ETHO was extended<br>
> to handle procedure types, which could be passed as arguments.<br>
><br>
> There's great advantages in avoiding temporary-fads, so I never exercised<br>
> OOP. Now [using LEO] that it's less easy to access my old NativeOberon<br>
> files, I failed to find the documentation, and example uses of the <passing<br>
> PROCs as arguments>.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Where should I look?<br>
><br>
><br>
> Can Oberon procedure types facilitate the <functional/compositional><br>
> style of programming? Which is NOT a passing fad.<br>
><br>
<br>
You might want to read Wirth more... Wirth has articles such as Through<br>
the Looking Glass.... and he seems to think Functional programming is a<br>
fad, but that OOP has something to offer us....<br>
<br>
Which is why his languages have OOP in them or advanced structured<br>
programming.<br>
<br>
Essentially OOP is just extending the type system further than before,<br>
whereas a lot of pathetic OOP languages use snake oil terms like "class"<br>
in place of type. An object is an instance of a class. Hmm. Why not an<br>
instance of a type?<br>
<br>
Why is it even an object and not just a struct? a struct or record, is an<br>
instance of a type. Now we have no OOP, just advanced structured<br>
programming...<br>
<br>
Wirth seems to think OOP solves the parallelization problem better than<br>
functional programming if you check his articles. Through the looking<br>
glass might be the one, or there are others. I am simply too lazy to link<br>
to them and not feeling like searching for it.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 03:33:17 -0600<br>
From: "Lars O" <<a href="mailto:noreply@z505.com">noreply@z505.com</a>><br>
To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <<a href="mailto:oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch">oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Oberon] Functional programming style for Oberon?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:5a7e66d1ef7738d335b184b10b0ddf03.squirrel@gator3286.hostgator.com">5a7e66d1ef7738d335b184b10b0ddf03.squirrel@gator3286.hostgator.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
eas lab wrote:<br>
> "functional programming" is very different from our "imperative<br>
> programming".<br>
><br>
<br>
You've been sold a lie by the religious cult known as functional<br>
programmers. It's not that different at all really. What ends up happening<br>
is all sorts of side effects are required for the functional program to<br>
actually do something useful, i.e. haskell Monads.... There is NO<br>
scientific proof whatsoever that ramming a bunch of side effects into<br>
monads makes it better than having the side effects like "writeln()" right<br>
there in a pascal program or cout() in a c program.<br>
<br>
At some point you have to deal with side effects sooner or later and<br>
delaying it until the last minute so that your program does absolutely<br>
nothing until it hits the "monads" section is kind of like shoving all<br>
your code into one long procedure that does anything useful, and putting<br>
all the code that doesn't do anything into other procedures elsehwere.<br>
SHOW me the science, and the studies done that prove this code is more<br>
reliable, less bug prone, etc. Then there is the parallelization hype....<br>
But GoLang has goroutines for that, is GoLang functional?<br>
<br>
Show me the science and the studies done. Functional programmers are<br>
guilty of religious cult propaganda. Join our cult because we know more<br>
than all the other cults out there! trust our bible over at Haskell Wiki<br>
because it's God's word! Oh really? Show me the SCIENCE. Ask Dijkstra, he<br>
said something along the lines of "massaging all your code" is what<br>
functional programming is.<br>
<br>
Also, is the relational model, functional? If you end up actually updating<br>
your database with anything useful, you've got a side effect. Without side<br>
effects you are castrated, like a cow that has his balls cut off.<br>
<br>
Wise GoLang programmer said "I used a functional programming language that<br>
was doubly functional. Doubly in the fact that it actually did something."<br>
<br>
Lisp is jokingly a procedural language being fraudulently sold as functional.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 03:53:53 -0600<br>
From: "Lars O" <<a href="mailto:noreply@z505.com">noreply@z505.com</a>><br>
To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <<a href="mailto:oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch">oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Oberon] Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:272ca1c552f748c7240c61e67d006524.squirrel@gator3286.hostgator.com">272ca1c552f748c7240c61e67d006524.squirrel@gator3286.hostgator.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
Jan de Kruyf wrote:<br>
> Good morning David,<br>
><br>
><br>
>> or perhaps he hasn't made a final determination on CASE.<br>
><br>
> I like to believe that too.<br>
> Ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Things have changed<br>
> before in Oberon. Sometimes on good scientific grounds, sometimes on the<br>
> basis of practical deliberations.<br>
><br>
> What Wirth always _has_ argued against is needless inflation of the<br>
> language just because of 'feature fever'. And I agree wholeheartedly with<br>
> that sentiment.<br>
><br>
> At the same time of course we are slowly getting to the point where we<br>
> need to carry the idea forward ourselves.<br>
<br>
<br>
Or how about communication? i.e. why doesn't Wirth participate in<br>
developer discussions regarding languages? I think we are stuck in the<br>
1970's where one programmer writes a compiler and has zero feedback from<br>
its users, because the God programmers knows better than all his users.<br>
This is one area where languages like GoLang are better off - their lead<br>
developers actually participate in discussions, criticisms, ... they<br>
actually COMMUNICATE with each other. Wow. They communicate, like people.<br>
Is wirth an alien?<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 04:19:05 -0600<br>
From: "Lars O" <<a href="mailto:noreply@z505.com">noreply@z505.com</a>><br>
To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <<a href="mailto:oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch">oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Oberon] Project Oberon for Mac<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:de020601ece78ed4eb61da3712c1f42e.squirrel@gator3286.hostgator.com">de020601ece78ed4eb61da3712c1f42e.squirrel@gator3286.hostgator.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1<br>
<br>
R. P. de Jong wrote:<br>
> Hi All,<br>
><br>
><br>
> I would like to inform you that a new "Project Oberon, Revised Edition<br>
> 2013" product has just been released. It is aimed to make Oberon<br>
> available for Mac owners who don???t want to tinker or boot into Windows<br>
> to get it running, like myself.<br>
<br>
<br>
You may want to clarify whether you mean Mac, as in the old mac or the new<br>
macosx. The old macs were based on pascal, whereas the new macosx is<br>
objectivec based and bsd based, and such. The old macs were pascal systems<br>
that people didn't really know about, well possibly assembly based too.<br>
I'm not an expert on Macs, though, just spreading typical mac rumors... as<br>
it's all closed source anyway, so no one truly knows.<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 10:21:03 +0000<br>
From: Bob Walkden <<a href="mailto:bob@web-options.com">bob@web-options.com</a>><br>
To: ETH Oberon and related systems <<a href="mailto:oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch">oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Oberon] Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon<br>
Message-ID: <SNT406-EAS126E212E02429A7113E5B56F7C90@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"<br>
<br>
On 11 Jan 2016, at 09:54, Lars O <<a href="mailto:noreply@z505.com">noreply@z505.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> [...]<br>
><br>
> Or how about communication? i.e. why doesn't Wirth participate in<br>
> developer discussions regarding languages? I think we are stuck in the<br>
> 1970's where one programmer writes a compiler and has zero feedback from<br>
> its users, because the God programmers knows better than all his users.<br>
> This is one area where languages like GoLang are better off - their lead<br>
> developers actually participate in discussions, criticisms, ... they<br>
> actually COMMUNICATE with each other. Wow. They communicate, like people.<br>
> Is wirth an alien?<br>
><br>
<br>
He's a teacher, and obviously a good one. That is one of the most effective forms of communication. Almost all of his work seems to have been done in collaboration with others.<br>
<br>
I was never his student, but his books are among the best computer science writing that I know of, and have been immeasurably useful in my own computing education. The clarity of his writing is quite extraordinary by any standards; more so when compared with most CS literature.<br>
<br>
He is one of the very best communicators I know of.<br>
<br>
B<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 7<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 02:44:12 -0800<br>
From: "Douglas G. Danforth" <<a href="mailto:danforth@greenwoodfarm.com">danforth@greenwoodfarm.com</a>><br>
To: ETH Oberon and related systems <<a href="mailto:oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch">oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Oberon] Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:5693877C.9040302@greenwoodfarm.com">5693877C.9040302@greenwoodfarm.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed<br>
<br>
I first met Niklaus Wirth when he team taught a course in Algol-60 at<br>
Stanford<br>
in 1965 (yup, way back then). That was my first computer science course.<br>
-Doug Danforth<br>
<br>
<br>
On 1/11/2016 2:21 AM, Bob Walkden wrote:<br>
> On 11 Jan 2016, at 09:54, Lars O <<a href="mailto:noreply@z505.com">noreply@z505.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> [...]<br>
>><br>
>> Or how about communication? i.e. why doesn't Wirth participate in<br>
>> developer discussions regarding languages? I think we are stuck in the<br>
>> 1970's where one programmer writes a compiler and has zero feedback from<br>
>> its users, because the God programmers knows better than all his users.<br>
>> This is one area where languages like GoLang are better off - their lead<br>
>> developers actually participate in discussions, criticisms, ... they<br>
>> actually COMMUNICATE with each other. Wow. They communicate, like people.<br>
>> Is wirth an alien?<br>
>><br>
> He's a teacher, and obviously a good one. That is one of the most effective forms of communication. Almost all of his work seems to have been done in collaboration with others.<br>
><br>
> I was never his student, but his books are among the best computer science writing that I know of, and have been immeasurably useful in my own computing education. The clarity of his writing is quite extraordinary by any standards; more so when compared with most CS literature.<br>
><br>
> He is one of the very best communicators I know of.<br>
><br>
> B<br>
> --<br>
> <a href="mailto:Oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch">Oberon@lists.inf.ethz.ch</a> mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems<br>
> <a href="https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 8<br>
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 10:40:13 +0000 (added by <a href="mailto:postmaster@bluewin.ch">postmaster@bluewin.ch</a>)<br>
Subject: [Oberon] (no subject)<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:563B739603D13119@zhhdzmsp-smta14.bluewin.ch">563B739603D13119@zhhdzmsp-smta14.bluewin.ch</a>> (added by<br>
<a href="mailto:postmaster@bluewin.ch">postmaster@bluewin.ch</a>)<br>
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------------------------------<br>
<br>
End of Oberon Digest, Vol 140, Issue 4<br>
**************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>