[Oberon] It's the new guy's fault!

[Lisias Toledo]

Ghost in the Machine wrote:

> Cut-n-paste and moving frames is another story.  The combinations of
> keypress required to perform this is wrong IMO.  These are such common
> functions they should be the least necessary to memorize and the easiest
> to do.  I do not find them easy.

Neither I. Isn't easy because it is diferent.

However, if you had played with Linux on kernel 0.99 times, you should
had the same troubles. The original X's copy & paste is diferent from
MessyLoss/Windoze3 ones and believe me - it was better on some cases,
worst on others.

IMHO Oberon was born to be diferent. To explore new ways to do old
things. And new ones.

"Boldly Pasting where no man had Pasted before"... (ugly joke, huh???
;-)

 
> I already know I'm going to hear the glories of Oberon's three button mouse
> here.  Save it.  I'm not buying the three button mouse now or ever.

So you will have to learn the 2 buttom hack. Or not use Oberon at all.
Nothing personal, but it's the way it is.

I had tried OS/2, Minix, Linux (0.99, 2.0, 2.2), FreeBSD, and all of
them have good and bad points. It's interesting that they almost share
all the bad points.

Then came Java, and it was interesting too. But had their bad points
too.

So I recall some guy talking about a "new and weird" thing called Oberon
when I was on College (we were using Modula2 that time - hey! it was
1992!!!), and I thought "It's time to learn that thing".

Oberon has it bad points? Well, I think it has. But it's NEW bad points.
It's something to think about, not just copy other guys solutions.

I'm not using Oberon to use it the way I always had used other software.
I'm trying hard to use Oberon to learn NEW WAYS to use and write
software.

I will use Oberon on my comercial life? Probably not (but should be nice
port it to ARM7500 I'm hacking know). But I want to break old bad
habits, and maybe Oberon can help me on it.

 
> It's also true that if the full compliment of COMs were supported by
> Native/Beta rather than Alpha which not only has incomplete install
> disk image files it apparently can't unzip it's own source code then
> by now I would reading this from within Oberon wouldn't I?

Yes. You right.

However, I think there's a reason some code is called "stable", others
are called "Beta", and even more are called "Alpha".

Newbies should begin with stable versions.

Man, go play with Oberon/Win32 (or linux) like I'm doing before trying
something Alpha! Use the Learning Curve in your favor, not against you!

 
> You prefer to make a newbie responsible for oversight at ETH to
> complete one version before starting another new version.  I think
> that is misguided logic.

I think it's lack of time. Oberon don't have all the coding-force Linux
and *BSD has.

 
> > Else stick to MS.
> 
> I get this feedback far too frequently.  If you, or any other Oberon
> users continue with these remarks you will be recieving similar
> comments from me in the future.   Correct your attitude.

Pal, if you are getting this kind of feedback so many times, don't
there's a least a little chance the problem isn't in the rest of the
World?

Is just OUR attitude the one must be corrected?

I think there is better ways to be understood.

 
> There is no problem with my "views" as they are.  I am new to this
> OS and am being sent up blind alleys to find myself blocked by
> one unfinished version after the next then told to buy a special
> mouse or move on.[...]

You ever tried Minix or Linux 0.99 on middle '90s, did you? ;-) Coherent
perhaps? ;-)

Oberon, AFAIK, is NOT a mainstream project. You can't expect the same
code cohesion you expect from Linux or BSD. There are no POSIX standart
to lay on. There's no old mistakes to be avoided.

And people make mistakes.

 
> I have been disappointed by Native, Native/Alpha, and Native/Beta
> for many reasons and not petty reasons either.

Yes, I am disappointed with some features from Oberon myself. The lack
of enumerated types among them. But what I can say?

“if you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen” ???

If you think the way Oberon is going is that bad, what more else can we
do?

 
> I am disappointed that text runs off the right side of the screen as
> we debate the need to correct the error.
> I am disappointed that
> ZipTool cannot unzip Source*.Zip files.  

Yes, it is a mess. Maybe a horizontal scrool bar should be implemented?
Who here is so mad with this that are going to fix that?


> Need I go on?

Yes. I think the things are driving you mad should be said, you are
plain right on it.

 
> Anyone familiar with W31 or W9x will tell you cut-n-paste is old news.
> Get over it.

And anyone who used some flavor of Unix/X-Window will tell YOU MS's
cut-n-past is BAD news.

There are people who thinks YOUR way of doing things isn't THE BEST way
to do it.

I like the Oberon way? I don't know, I don't use it enough to make my
mind. It is why I am here. To find out.

 
> I had cut-n-paste in DOS for all the years I used it by adding a TSR called
> CTRLALT and it was a more global user-friendly cut-n-paste than any I've
> seen since btw.

It's your opinion, and it is welcomme to me. But isn't the only opinion.

In time, when I was in DOS, I used to copy-n-paste using Quaterdeck's
DeskView. And before that, on GEM.

-- 
[]s,
(Pink at Manaus.Amazon.Brazil.America.Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Universe)

Liberdade não é um esforço individual.
A sua só existe se vc garantir a dos outros!

Vapour : The Software's natural state.