[Oberon] cut-n-paste and the three button mouse

[Lisias Toledo]

Ghost in the Machine wrote:

> > Neither I. Isn't easy because it is diferent.
> 
> Not easy because it requires multiple combinations of button presses.

By this way CTRL-ENTER, ALT-ENTER, ALT-TAB, CTRL-TAB should be
impossible to use too...

We have 102 keys on a keyboard, and the MS-Genius don't wasted time to
create new combinations for it. Even nowadays, a Click on a Link on IE
does one thing, Shift-Click other.

At least on Opera, we have Shift-Ctrl-Click (or it was Ctrl-Alt-Click?
oh, nevermind!), and even more : You can press the SecondaryButton and
move the mouse to send even more commands.

Oberon just moves the keyboard overload to the mouse. No better, no
worst. Just diferent.

 
> The most common use of the mouse should be the easiest to do/remember
> not the other way around.

I don't see any diference between a keyboard overloaded and a mouse
overloaded, except by the fewer possible click combinations on a 3
button mouse (12, I think).

Things becomes easy to do/remember as far as one use the knowledge.

There was a time when I was Computer Instructor for living, and once I
got a pupil that NEVER had see a computer on life. I spend A MONTH to
teach her to use the two buttons mouse, believe it or not.

You think we should, so, use just one buttons mices con PCs??
 

> >From what I am reading about each new version I'm guessing the
> "two button hack" as you call it will disappear in new versions.

Bad move.


> I am saying that interest in a three button mouse died off over a decade ago
> and will turn away as many potential users (or more) than it will attract
> because it is nonconformist.

I think you are wrong on it. Here at Brazil 3 button mouse sells very
well. The third button is used to call a launch panel on some mouses, or
to invoke some macro or extended function (like a Zooming Glass).

EVERYBODY here at home uses 3 button mouses, we should have about 5 of
them, mainly from A4tech or dbBoedder (or a clone of them I'm using now
- it have a trackball instead the 2 wheels, very convenient and
confortable to use).

If I have a complain to Oberon's user interface it's the lack of wheels
support. For while... ;-)

Humm... On a second thought, I have a two button mouse... It's a
GyroPoint (it works off table, on air). I use it when I'm teaching and
don't have a table around... 8-P

 
> The harsh attitude to get a three button mouse or leave will finish off
> those new users who try to work around it leaving ZERO new Oberon
> users.

IMHO the 3 button mouse is not the main issue. Consider that if enough
people becames mad about it, they can simply FORK the damn thing and
make a good 2 button interface for Oberon. Shouldn't be hard, Oberon is
modularized pretty well.

What's really my concern is the continous growth of MeSsy way of
thinking. I see High School teaching Data Structures using C, God
Dammit! The poor guys spend 50% of the time fighting the C sintax rules
and debugging stupid semantic inconsistencies, not learning lists, trees
or whatever!!!!

THIS PEOPLE is the suposed Oberon's new users and believe me, almost
all of them can't handle installing Windows, what can I say about Linux,
Oberon or - BELIEVE ME - MS-DOS.

 
> > Pal, if you are getting this kind of feedback so many times, don't
> > there's a least a little chance the problem isn't in the rest of the
> > World?
> 
> Pal, I get this same flack when I point out inconsistencies to the Linux
> crowd.  They don't intimidate me either.  Anyone who can only start
> software and never finish it doesn't intimidate me.

Well... I didn't said there's NO CHANCE the problem is the rest of the
world... 8-)

 
> > Is just OUR attitude the one must be corrected?
> 
> If you want Oberon to ever be acceptable to the rest of the world
> then yes, only YOUR attitude.

Good shot. 8-)

 
> It is not a mistake to generate multiple unfinished versions of Oberon
> then expect a total newbie to find a way to deal with it.  It is just
> wrong.

As a matter of fact, WHO is expecting a total newbie dealing with a
ongoing, unfinished project? 

I remember when I was fighting Linux 0.99 ('94 or about), and it was
even worse than Oberon now, as Internet simply was in a "no exist for
good" status around here. No way to cry for help, AFAIK no one was using
Linux here at time.

I spent 7 DAYS to make my machine work on that version on Linux, and I
don't managed to use my hand scanner on it. And I had to use X on VGA16
mode, as my ATI vga card was not supported.

It's simply the way things get started.

In true I can tell you write a VGA driver for Oberon is far away easier
than to XFree's X11 (version 2, I think... That thing supported CGA
modes!!!).

AFAIK, Oberon isn't a ready to ship product. It's like a kind of dynamic
distributed laboratory... There's no comercial support to Oberon, nobody
(AFAIK) is being paid to write documentation or code.

I can't see, now, how one can use Oberon without being prepared to hack
down a lot of problems...

 
> I'm not disappointed by a lack of "features" unless you consider being
> functional/useful a "feature".

Well... What DO YOU expect from Oberon?

I don't think Oberon will be a substitute (at least on the near future)
to Linux, DOS or Windows...

How many people are coding it? What the active coders expect from
Oberon? Why should they fulfill expectations others than theirs?

 
> > "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" ???
> 
> Save it, I'm not intimidated enough to care.

It was just a rhetoric question, I don't mean to intimidate anybody.
Please re-read the original previous paragraph and note the
interrogation points.

 
> > Yes, it is a mess. Maybe a horizontal scrool bar should be implemented?
> > Who here is so mad with this that are going to fix that?
> 
> No scroll bar is needed.  The right frame needs to be moved to the left (widened).

Try the Deskop System... Or hit the Grow Button 2 times.

 
> > Yes. I think the things are driving you mad should be said, you are
> > plain right on it.
> 
> At times it sounds more like "go away" to me.

HEAR you is not the same to AGREE with you. ;-)

Helps more one that disagree with me and tell me that than many that
blindly agrees with me all the times.

However, there's no garantee I will listen and agree on it everytime...

 
> > And anyone who used some flavor of Unix/X-Window will tell YOU MS's
> > cut-n-past is BAD news.
> 
> It doesn't require multiple button presses to use it.

And do not give me more than one clipboard.

I think it's time to say I'm a EMACS user... All that keystrokes to
Killing and Yanking was a pain to learn, but once I became familiar on
it, it makes a lot more sense than the one clipboard aproach from MS. At
least, IMHO.

 
> I don't own a "way".  I'm trying to express one simple fact that everyone
> is determined to ignore.

Maybe that fact isn't true for everybody...


> People don't normally own a three button mouse

Well.. People **YOU KNOW** don't normally own a 3 button mouse.

Around me, just Microsoft jerks and first time users owns a 2 button
mouse. I'M SERIOUS.

I know 3 or 4 people who uses a 2 button mouse. Everybody else prefers
to use a mouse with wheels, and 90% of these mouse here uses the wheel
as the third button when pressing it. The other 10% uses 3 buttons mouse
with TWO wheels.

And MY mouse has FOUR buttons, and the shop were I bought it selled at
least 20 of it. And I'm talking from the middle of a rain forest, on a
third-world country.

Just for curiosity, even my brother's KEYBOARD has a Wheel... 8-)


> and aren't going to buy one for an unfinished OS they don't know how to
> use yet.  Life just isn't like that.

You are right. Newbies aren't going to buy any hardware to use a
unfinished OS, because they aren't going to use it at all.

Oberon is unfinished? You can bet your mouse it is. I left to the reader
to answer what kind of user are needed now... 8-)


> > It's your opinion, and it is welcomme to me. But isn't the only opinion.
> 
> You've not tried CTRLALT so, yes, you have to trust me to not lie.  It's
> available from my tech website on the utilities page if you have a DOS
> to try it with.

I BELIEVE you. I just don't AGREE with you.

I'm pretty sure CTRLALT is very easy to use. But I think the Unix/X way
of Copy&Paste more interesting, I like multiple clipboards like EMACS
and I did very well with Deskviews aproach.

 
> Desqview's cut-n-paste was awkward as I recall it.  I used CTRLALT.

I liked Deskview...  Oh!! And linux's GPM 8-)

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(Pink at Manaus.Amazon.Brazil.America.Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Universe)

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