[Oberon] attracting new Oberon users

[Lisias Toledo]

Ghost in the Machine wrote:

> > I don't see any diference between a keyboard overloaded and a mouse
> > overloaded[...]
> 
> Let me attempt to clarify.  The most often used _function_ of the
> mouse other than waving it around the screen should require the
> least number of key-presses. 
> [...]

Just like the Morse Code. That guy just ordered the symbols by the
english usage, there're no intuitive or logical pattern. This make sense
when maximize the bandwidth of a channel is important, but don't when
you are designing human interfaces. Morse Cose was a pain to learn to
me...

And even worse, the code doesn't match the Portuguese most used symbols
table, so here we got a hard to use code that DOES NOT maximize our
bandwidth. We lost in both sides.

So I conclude that not every human interface is good for everybody. So
there is not a unique solution for everybody.

 
> > Things becomes easy to do/remember as far as one use the knowledge.
> 
> No really.  Try memorizing PI to 150 decimal places then attempt to
> write it down six months later from memory.

You did not understand what I said. There is a clear difference between
use something several times a day and twice a year.

I know some people who can convert Z-80 Assembly to bytecode from head,
as
they did Assembly programming for living...

 
> Memory has it's limitations even with constant repitition and in
> the meantime typos are a killer when typing program source code.

Yes. But a 3 button mouse has less possible "typos" than a 102 keys
keyboard. ;-)

 
> Don't be offended by my American arrogance here but there are more
> potential users of Oberon in the USA than in Brazil?

I think there's not. We have a more than two decade tradition on use of
non C/C++ languages around here. We are the second biggest market to
XBase products (the first is Germany), and Delphi (Object Pascal) is
well accepted around here.

Don't be offended by my third-world arrogance 8-), but we have the
feeling that north-americans doesn't recogniza any other way but
theirs...

 
> Trakballs that are owned by my family only have two buttons.  They paid
> roughly $100 US for them and aren't going to go buy another mouse anytime
> soon.

I had a 3 button trackball from Genius... 8-) I can't be used to
trackballs, however. I'm saving it to my son, so long I can afford a new
old computer... 8-)

And it cost me about R$ 60,00 (20 USD more or less). Sometimes I have
the weird feeling that some computer assessories are cheaper here...

 
> I'm of the opinion that you own more of these than the average person.

It's probably true... However, except by the GyroPoint (and the
trackball), all the mouses have his own computer attached 8-), so we
don't have a mouse overpopulation here... ;-)


> I'd wager you have an overhead projector for your computer AND
> several variations of the mouse?

Would be nice, but I have no use for the projector... If needed, I
probably would own one.

About the mice, I just use the one I found the most confortable to use.
There are a lot of computer users here, and each one has his owns
preferences. So long we found a mouse isn't what we want, we sell it.

 
> You seem to think potential users of Oberon have no other options and
> must use their time and resources to fix Oberon before they can use it.
> This isn't realistic.

I don't think, right now, how Oberon can be of use to someone except in
these terms. Oberon isn't a finished product.

 
> I have schematics for the one-handed keyboard developed at MIT and
> intend to build one eventually AND learn to type with one hand.

Interesting...

 
> EVEN with those contacts I avoided Linux at the start.  It was obvious
> to me it was in it's infancy and only time would bring it to adulthood.
> I've only just this year bothered to even install a Linux OS on my
> equipment.

I think Oberon is walking just that way... It's a long time before we
can call Oberon a mass use S.O....

 
> Few, if any, were paid to develop Linux.  All OS are a potential
> laboratory if you are a programmer.  If you are a user only those
> OS that offer something you need are attractive.

Not 100% right. Linux has getting a lot of commercial attention around
here, there are MANY people being paid by someone to work on Linux, like
Marcelo Tossati.

Ok, there are FEW paid workers on Linux. But there are.

 
> > I can't see, now, how one can use Oberon without being prepared to hack
> > down a lot of problems...
> 
> No OS has only users who do programming.  There are levels of interest.

No "ready to use OS",f I think you mean.


> Putting the documentation into the Oberon install is somewhat of a
> joke.  If you are reading the documentation you must already somewhat
> understand how to use the mouse etc. or how could you be there reading
> the documentation?  No one seems to see the humor in this but me?

Did you ever ran the Win95 Tutorial BEFORE installed the damn thing? ;-)

Everybody gets his OS pre-installed on their machines. Installing a OS
is not a trivial job, there is NOTHING we can do about it, no matter how
work we spend on "user friendly" installers.

At least here at home, the Distribution.text was the first file I
readed once the thing was installer, and this tutorial pop up
automatically on the first time I ran Oberon/Win32. Indeed, it's still
there, just in case... 8-)

 
> I would be satisfied if I could scroll to the bottom of the pages of
> documentation.  I don't think that's unreasonable to expect, do you?

But we can do it!!

Left  Button throws the line next to the mouse cursor to the top of
window. Right Button throw it to the botton of Window. The Middle Button
mimetizes the Window's scrool bar behavior.

I found this very confortable to use, as I can easily choose the amount
of text to scrool. I'm not tied the the "page" concept anymore.

 
> There are at least 8 different versions out there (or more).
> Check out the Oberon Web-Ring. ;-)

I did.

But IMHO, all the roads lead to Rome... I mean... ETH-Oberon. 8-)


> The particular phrase you selected, "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen ???"
> is a challenge to a coward to either defend his/her actions/opinions or
> run away from the challenge.  Is this the meaning you had intended?

Oberon is a far from ready project, and anyone wishing to use it must be
prepared to hack problems down (and even fix them) or find something
else to play... I was meaning to challenge you to code (as a matter of
fact, you already did it), not to call you coward. 

The texts I had read appears to me to use this phrase on a daring, not
aggressive fashion... Well, I'm really sorry for that.


> If by "Desktop System" you refer to Gadgets then I can only say that
> in many ways it is worse.  The system log frame is entirely offscreen
> on the right with only the left-most edge showing.

By Desktop I mean open Packages.Tool and select "Desk". 

I'm using a 1024x768 display, I didn't had this issue... Let me adjust
the Oberon/Win32 to the a 640x480 window and change to Desktop...

Ok. I did it.

We can move the windows by dragging his borders. You can resize the
windows dragging the corners.

But I would agree with you if you complain about the thickness of the
border - it appears to be only one pixel width.

At least here, at Oberon/Win32, I have the Grow Button on every window
on Desktop mode.

 
> Hitting the "grow" button can only be done AFTER you reconfigure the
> original install to use System3.Tool and reboot.  Without this there
> is no "button" to "hit".

I have a System3.Tool window even on the Desktop... 

 
> I have been using "grow" to full screen to see the frames then have to
> chase the "grow" button around the screen to "close" it back down
> again.  If I get distracted and click on "close" once too often I
> lose that entire frame and must type "System.Recall" into the only
> remaining frame (system log) and double click on that to get my
> System3.Tool frame back again.

I don't like this, I agree with you. Use the "Close" button to shrink
the Window is weird, at minimum. I had closed more documents than I
wish.

A Shrink button or other solution should be used instead, or at least a
confirmation mechanism before closing the thing.

 
> Does this sound "user friendly" at ALL? 

"Oberon IS friendly... It is just seletive about who is considered a
'friend'"... (another bad joke, sorry... 8-)


> How many new users are
> going to notice the option to configure for "System3.Tool" and
> reboot?

The ones who managed to read Distribution.text. It appears to me that
Alpha had neglected this text for some reason, or you wouldn't have had
so many hassles.


> How many will know they can type "System.Recall" into
> the only remaing frame to get back one that they clicked "close"
> in once too often?

I agree with you here. Oberon is too much unforgiven on a lot of issues.

Just to be safe, I configured the F-12 key to "Desktops.OpenDoc
System3.Tool ~". Sometimes I click the Close button too much... 8-(

 
> > And do not give me more than one clipboard.
> 
> Third part software to supply multiple clipboards has existed since
> Windows v3.1 possibly even Windows v3.0 - you didn't look for it?

Yes, I did. But I don't remember if I found one who let me choose the
clipboard by keystrokes...

 
> New people installing
> Oberon are 10 times more likely to know Windows than the number of
> persons who might know Linux, BEOS, BSD, or any other OS.

It's something to think about, you got a point here.

 
> > Well.. People **YOU KNOW** don't normally own a 3 button mouse.
> 
> Exactly.  Pay enough to survive and travel the world and I will
> get you the statistics you require.

Well... Give me enough money and I give you the statistic you want...
8-D


> > Around me, just Microsoft jerks and first time users owns a 2 button
> > mouse. I'M SERIOUS.
> 
> Ah but the "Microsoft jerks" outnumber all the others by a factor of 10.

But since they aren't the people who is going to use Oberon, who cares?

 
> I don't really like the negative conotations of "third world".[...]

Well... I think on it as just one definition between so many others. And
pejorative or not, as a matter of fact, it's true.

IMHO, "Ugly nigger" and "Nonconformant facial aesthetic afro-american"
are the same meanning, and are the same offence.

But I can use others words if this annoys you, it's not a problem.

 
> Not using it at all is what HAS happened for the more than ten years
> that have passed since I first found Oberon.  I think this is unfortunate.

Yes, but it's the way some things works... I could managed to work on
Linux since 1994, but I didn't. So far, so good.


> Programmers do not LEAD, they follow.

But first you have to convince (or bribe) them to follow, or they will
do whatever programmers do when they aren't following someone... 8-)


> Programmers are attracted to projects that have a guaranteed user base.

Some researchers do it too. Eventually some lucky guy cames with
something interesting, like TV.


> Who would anyone play music in an empty theater?

Programmers, who else? 8-D

As a matter of fact, I used to play music alone when younger... Humm...
I didn't say that, ok? ;-)

-- 
[]s,
(Pink at Manaus.Amazon.Brazil.America.Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Universe)

Bose-Einstein Condensation : A new concept on Software Development.