No subject

"two button hack" as you call it will disappear in new versions.
There is a decided prejudice to hold onto the three button mouse
as though it was the central nexus of Oberon.

I am saying that interest in a three button mouse died off over a decade ago
and will turn away as many potential users (or more) than it will attract
because it is nonconformist.

The harsh attitude to get a three button mouse or leave will finish off
those new users who try to work around it leaving ZERO new Oberon
users.

[...]

> So I recall some guy talking about a "new and weird" thing called Oberon
> when I was on College (we were using Modula2 that time - hey! it was
> 1992!!!), and I thought "It's time to learn that thing".

I installed Oberon at approximately that time and when I saw what it
was decided I didn't have time for it.  That was my _first_ install of
Oberon.

[...]

> I'm not using Oberon to use it the way I always had used other software.
> I'm trying hard to use Oberon to learn NEW WAYS to use and write
> software.

You wouldn't know it but I really do understand this.  I do think we've been
handed some bad habits by Microsoft and others and anything that can
give us a new perspective is a good thing.

> I will use Oberon on my comercial life? Probably not (but should be nice
> port it to ARM7500 I'm hacking know). But I want to break old bad
> habits, and maybe Oberon can help me on it.

You may be entirely correct if that is what you want from Oberon you
may get just what you want. :-)

>> It's also true that if the full compliment of COMs were supported by
>> Native/Beta rather than Alpha which not only has incomplete install
>> disk image files it apparently can't unzip it's own source code then
>> by now I would reading this from within Oberon wouldn't I?
>
> Yes. You right.
>
> However, I think there's a reason some code is called "stable", others
> are called "Beta", and even more are called "Alpha".
>
> Newbies should begin with stable versions.

I did.  I was _told_ to switch to Alpha or I would not have tried an
alpha release.  I have had to drop back to Native/Beta since
Alpha is incomplete in ways I cannot work around.

> Man, go play with Oberon/Win32 (or linux) like I'm doing before trying
> something Alpha! Use the Learning Curve in your favor, not against you!

I'm not really a Linux user nor all that fond of Win32 either.  I dabble in
both but normally use DOS or W31.

>> You prefer to make a newbie responsible for oversight at ETH to
>> complete one version before starting another new version.  I think
>> that is misguided logic.
>
> I think it's lack of time. Oberon don't have all the coding-force Linux
> and *BSD has.

Lack of time does not explain the ability to generate multiple unfinished
versions plus BlueBottle.  The time to create multiple versions would
have been better spent completing what had already been started
IMO.

>> > Else stick to MS.
>>
>> I get this feedback far too frequently.  If you, or any other Oberon
>> users continue with these remarks you will be recieving similar
>> comments from me in the future.   Correct your attitude.
>
> Pal, if you are getting this kind of feedback so many times, don't
> there's a least a little chance the problem isn't in the rest of the
> World?

Pal, I get this same flack when I point out inconsistencies to the Linux
crowd.  They don't intimidate me either.  Anyone who can only start
software and never finish it doesn't intimidate me.

> Is just OUR attitude the one must be corrected?

If you want Oberon to ever be acceptable to the rest of the world
then yes, only YOUR attitude.

> I think there is better ways to be understood.

Possibly but I'm trying the best way I know how.

>> There is no problem with my "views" as they are.  I am new to this
>> OS and am being sent up blind alleys to find myself blocked by
>> one unfinished version after the next then told to buy a special
>> mouse or move on.[...]

No, they were known to be a work-in-progress and I didn't have the
time.

> Oberon, AFAIK, is NOT a mainstream project. You can't expect the same
> code cohesion you expect from Linux or BSD. There are no POSIX standart
> to lay on. There's no old mistakes to be avoided.
>
> And people make mistakes.

It is not a mistake to generate multiple unfinished versions of Oberon
then expect a total newbie to find a way to deal with it.  It is just
wrong.

>> I have been disappointed by Native, Native/Alpha, and Native/Beta
>> for many reasons and not petty reasons either.
>
> Yes, I am disappointed with some features from Oberon myself. The lack
> of enumerated types among them. But what I can say?

I'm not disappointed by a lack of "features" unless you consider being
functional/useful a "feature".

> "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" ???

Save it, I'm not intimidated enough to care.

> If you think the way Oberon is going is that bad, what more else can we
> do?

"We"?  I see no "we" here.

>> I am disappointed that text runs off the right side of the screen as
>> we debate the need to correct the error.
>> I am disappointed that
>> ZipTool cannot unzip Source*.Zip files.
>
> Yes, it is a mess. Maybe a horizontal scrool bar should be implemented?
> Who here is so mad with this that are going to fix that?

No scroll bar is needed.  The right frame needs to be moved to the left (widened).

Big deal huh?

>> Need I go on?
>
> Yes. I think the things are driving you mad should be said, you are
> plain right on it.

At times it sounds more like "go away" to me.

>> Anyone familiar with W31 or W9x will tell you cut-n-paste is old news.
>> Get over it.
>
> And anyone who used some flavor of Unix/X-Window will tell YOU MS's
> cut-n-past is BAD news.

It doesn't require multiple button presses to use it.

> There are people who thinks YOUR way of doing things isn't THE BEST way
> to do it.

I don't own a "way".  I'm trying to express one simple fact that everyone
is determined to ignore.  People don't normally own a three button mouse
and aren't going to buy one for an unfinished OS they don't know how to
use yet.  Life just isn't like that.

[...]

>> I had cut-n-paste in DOS for all the years I used it by adding a TSR called
>> CTRLALT and it was a more global user-friendly cut-n-paste than any I've
>> seen since btw.
>
> It's your opinion, and it is welcomme to me. But isn't the only opinion.

You've not tried CTRLALT so, yes, you have to trust me to not lie.  It's
available from my tech website on the utilities page if you have a DOS
to try it with.

> In time, when I was in DOS, I used to copy-n-paste using Quaterdeck's
> DeskView. And before that, on GEM.

Desqview's cut-n-paste was awkward as I recall it.  I used CTRLALT.

Charles.Angelich

DOS the Ghost in the Machine!

Family And Friends wepages - Multimedia
orginal stories with animation and sound,
poetry, music, and photography:
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