[Oberon] unable to read documentation

[Lisias Toledo]

Ghost in the Machine wrote:

> Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:59:18 -0400
> From: Lisias Toledo <lisias at unforgettable.com>

> Ghost in the Machine wrote:

> Your premise is that Morse Code was never `fixed' therefore
> your conclusion is that Oberon should never be fixed either?
> False logic.

Hummm.... Let's try again... 8-P

*IF* we have "fixed" the Morse Code to achieve the Postuguese entropy we
had maximized out bandwidth, however, we would lost our interoperability
with the rest of the world. The cost of the lost bandwidth is nothing
compared to the cost of the lost interoperability on international
channels. So we picked the least worst choice.

So, maximal entropy ins't always the best way to solve things.

Everybody is doing the same thing on GUIs. There are a lot of people
using classic GUIs so solve news problems, and so solving it on a non
optimal fashion.

As with Morse Code, optimal "mouse" entropy solve a specific problem,
but isn't the better choice for everyone (not everybody speaks english).
As you said below, a lot of people moves files around by mistake, so
this mouse "entropy" doesn't apeears to be the best choice on moving
files.

If it is too easy to doing things you don't want, probaby you will spend
more time on "undoing" it than the time one would spend on a more
intuitive or logic (bur less "entropyan") choice.

 
> > You did not understand what I said.[...]

> You did not understand what I said - or you chose to ignore it?

I'm concluding that NOBODY is understanding ANYBODY here... 8-P

Thank's God we are not diplomats... 8-D

 
> > I know some people who can convert Z-80 Assembly to bytecode
> > from head, as they did Assembly programming for living...
> 
> Is there an entire village, town, city full of these people or
> would there be maybe two?

Aa a matter of fact, I think there's a dozen.

However, if by the fact that just a few people can code Z-80 we conclude
that there's no need to build tools for them, then we shouldn't have ABS
brakes cheap enough to use it on every car.

There are people and people, I don't think a unique tool (as a specific
Human Interface) will be enough for everyone.

 
> Ask a Windows user how many times they've clicked the wrong
> button or moved a file they didn't intended to with a
> `reflexive' click they didn't intend to do.

This is the paragraph I mentioned above.


> You may be surprised.

No. I do it myself all the time... 8-(

 
> > [...] We are the second
> > biggest market to XBase products (the first is Germany), and
> > Delphi (Object Pascal) is well accepted around here.
> 
> I've always wondered who was using those. ;-)

You found it... 8-)

As a matter of fact, CA-Clipper is to our legacy softwares what COBOL is
to yours. On a few months ago I had a job on a big warehouse (I don't
know if this is the right word, but is something like one) - some
millions of USD$ of year incoming - and 95% of their software runs on
MS/DOS + Clipper under Novell Netware...

 
> > Sometimes I have the weird feeling that some computer
> > assessories are cheaper here...
> 
> Different countries assess different import taxes.

You don't know Brazil, my friend... We pay taxes to pay taxes, believe
it or not.. 8-(


> >  all the mouses have his own computer attached
> > 8-), so we don't have a mouse overpopulation here... ;-)
> 
> You have more mouse _and_ more computers - as I suspected.

I discovered is more effective 3 or 4 crap computers who can do the job
than a very nice one, who can take the job the best and fast way, but I
can't use because my wife is reading about actor's life... 8-P


> > Would be nice, but I have no use for the projector... If
> > needed, I probably would own one.
> 
> Darn! I missed one.

I didn't said "I don't want one"... 8-)

 
> Used hardware isn't popular in the USA.

As a matter of fact, there is a good market here for them. There are
people buying a 468 with 8 Megaram, HD, Monitor, etc for about 100 USD$.
But remember the monthly income of the common man here is something like
90 USD$...

 
> I agree, Oberon is not a finished product. I'm a bit surprised
> since I installed it the first time over a decade ago. 10 years
> would seem long enough to complete one or two versions? [...]

You got a point here. 

 
> Over a decade has passed while other OS added similar features
> that Oberon probably had first. In another decade I doubt
> anything Oberon can do will be unique.

Some software was born to die. Once all the Oberon's good concepts is
exausted, probably Oberon will follow them... 8-(

 
> > Did you ever ran the Win95 Tutorial BEFORE installed the damn
> > thing? ;-)
> 
> Win95 was preceded by W v1.0, 2.0, 3.0, and 3.1. Many people
> were already familiar with the interface if nothing else.

As a Instructor, I found a lot of people who never used Windows before,
and almost all of them complained to me almost the same you do about
Oberon.

After years of using, things becames "natural" to us. And when we face a
different one, is like the sky becaming red : it looks, at minimum,
weird no matter how good it could be.

 
> It doesn't have to be broken if anyone cares to fix it.

But first you must convince the &%$¨%$¨guy the damned thing is broke...
8-P


> It
> stays broken because people defend their RIGHT to use jumbled
> documentation that you can't read. It's not a law of the
> universe that these things cannot be done in a more logical
> fashion.

I didn't found the documentation bad...
 

> > At least here at home, the Distribution.text was the first
> > file I readed once the thing was installer, and this tutorial
> > pop up automatically on the first time I ran Oberon/Win32.
> > Indeed, it's still there, just in case... 8-)
> 
> Nothing `pops up' for Native/Oberon/Beta that I can recall.

THIS IS A SEVERE FAULT.

It took to me a couple hours to read all the tutorial, and I can say
without doubt I cannot managed to use Oberon without readind it first.
In true, I cannot managed even to OPEN the Distribution.text without
read it first.

I understand you now.

 
[about the scroll bar]

> > But we can do it!!
> 
> Try doing it with less than 1024x768 displays and see what
> happens.

I think I must install Native Oberon, there's a lot of things I'm not
understanding on your complains. On Oberon/Win32 there's no severe
hassle on scrolling in any resolution...


[about that "kitchen" issue]
> Between close friends, if said with a smile on your face, it
> can be used that way but is really not a good idea (if you
> forget to smile it could be misinterpreted even by a close
> friend).

Good to know. I will remember this.


> I suspect you find Oberon more agreeable because you are within
> the Windows OS and can use that and Oberon at the same time. I
> am in DOS when I boot into Oberon (no backup windows
> environment handy).

You might be right.

OTOH, I think Native/Oberon has a lot of flaws what doesn't exist in
Oberon/Win32.

 
> At 640x480 there is no place to put the System.Log frame if you
> do drag it out. And why should it need to be moved? Is Oberon
> to foolish to resize for the display?

I just download Oberon V4 and I've play a little with it. There's somes
nice things on his GUI that should be of use, like reconfiguring the
display to not have a "system tray".

ftp://ftp.ssw.uni-linz.ac.at/pub/Oberon/

However I didn't found a DOS version. But a Windows 3.0 one is there.

 
> I will go back and re-read Distribution.Text but I'm guessing
> if it does mention System3.Tool it doesn't explain what it does
> or why a new user might want to have access to it.

The Distribution.text I read is the "Release 2.4" one.

 
[about Microsoft jerks]

> > But since they aren't the people who is going to use Oberon,
> > who cares?
> 
> Anyone who doesn't want to be the only Oberon user remaining
> some day.

IMHO Windows is not a issue for Oberon. The ones who loves and just use
Windows are definitively lost for Oberon (IMHO they are definitively
LOST FOR GOOD..).

But there're a lot of proto-S.O.s poping up around the World, and they
are the real competitors. Give a peek on http://www.freeos.com (and on
http://www.theosfiles.com/ too).


> How will Oberon grow and develop with only one user?

Well, if anyone manages to convince God to be this user, maybe... 8-)

-- 
[]s,
(Pink at Manaus.Amazon.Brazil.America.Earth.SolarSystem.OrionArm.MilkyWay.Universe)

Bose-Einstein Condensation : A new concept on Software Development.