[Oberon] Oberon != Z-80

[Charles Angelich]

>Message: 3
>Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 08:13:50 -0400
>From: Lisias Toledo <lisias at unforgettable.com>
>To: oberon at inf.ethz.ch
>Subject: Re: [Oberon] God as the last Oberon user
>Reply-To: oberon at inf.ethz.ch
>
>Ghost in the Machine wrote:
>
>> A three button mouse is not "interoperability with the rest of the
>> world" it is non-standard equipment.
>
>A non-standard equipment to be used on a non-standard operational
>system, who was born on a non-standard hardware (Ceres, I think). 8-)
>
>EVERY new idea, new concept or new anything are non-standard.

Good points but poor marketing strategy.

>Well, we are stucked on two possibilities...
>
>a) You design and convice some people to work with you (or do it
>alone)on a alternative mouse handling routines for Oberon;
>
>b) Forget about Oberon.

I have to admit that option "b" is becoming more attractive every day
but there is also "c".

c) I am having no problems using the CTRL key as the MM button.  I just
have problems here with other Oberon users who want to dictate what equipment
I must use.  Solution - other Oberon users get used to my use of a two
button mouse. ;-)

>> > However, if by the fact that just a few people can code Z-80 we conclude
>> > that there's no need to build tools for them, then we shouldn't have ABS
>> > brakes cheap enough to use it on every car.
>> 
>> I do not comprehend your logic here.
>
>Sometimes I think faster than I can explain myself.
>
>Z-80 are the chips used to build ABS brakes here at Brazil. If nobody
>cares to build tools for the non-common people, non-common tasks will be
>harder to be done.

I began with ASM over 20+ years ago when the 8080A was the big deal.
I know the Z-80 (a somewhat compatible chip to the 8080A).  Your
country is probably using the Z-80A or higher.  The Zilog was improved
(made faster) but it was too late to retain the market share they had
enjoyed at one time.  

Point being tools to work in embedded ASM were availabe for the Z-80 for
the past 20 years. It was not the "odd" chip, it was once the most
common chip. LOL

>However, common products are made of non-common tasks, so ignoring
>non-common tasks will made things harder to everybody.

According to my religion this is the justification for the rich to
exist.  To accomplish what one average man could never do.  Build
libraries, bridges, form armies etc.

I am not rich, I am that one average man.

>> If anyone ever wants the number of Oberon users to increase
>> the existing users will have to suffer the pain of using normal
>> standard equipment.  I know it will be a sacrifice to not be
>> unique but the pain will subside eventually.
>
>I think the main question is not Oberon, but what we call "standard
>equipment". 3 button mouse are very common here, and after all, even our
>keyboards are different from EUA.

Try to promote an OS that uses the MIT one-handed keyboard and you see
something comparable to telling me to buy another mouse.

>I do not see how to convince, for example, a Brazilian guy to code to a
>american standard mouse.

I am discussing this with a "Brazilian guy" who took the time to learn
English?  Was learning English unreasonable and a waste of your time?

>> > As a matter of fact, CA-Clipper is to our legacy softwares what COBOL is
>[...]
>> > MS/DOS + Clipper under Novell Netware...
>> 
>> No reason not to if it works.
>
>Until you discover there's no one left to maintain the installed code...
>8-(
>
>Well, this is offtopic anyway... 8-)
>
>> I've not seen the Windows version of Oberon.  I am using the DOS single
>> FAT file install of Native/Oberon/Beta 08.12.00 because the newer
>> Alpha is unfinished and will not install to one large (30 meg) FAT file.
>
>Homework to next weekend: install Native Oberon.
>

>> > I just download Oberon V4 and I've play a little with it. There's somes
>[...]
>
>> If I dance from version to version the next messages will blame me for
>> not staying with one version.
>
>8-) But it can be a good source of inspiration. I don't telling you to
>use that thing. Just play a bit with it and see what do you think.
>

I have installed Oberon V4 (POW with OPAL) into a W31 environment.  A totally 
different approach for Oberon unfortunately.  Seems to be a vehicle to avoid 
learning Windows API and use Oberon as a `translation' tool to write
Windows apps?

>> Some earn their living that way and are doing quite well.
>
>I know two kinds of Windows guys : the ones that got riped everytime
>something strange happens in his/her computer, and the ones who ripes
>the first ones. 8-)

"Ripe" in my language refers to the time when fruit is sweet and edible.
In common use also when fruit is beyond this point and has a strong odor.
I suspect you mean something closer to rape?  Rape def: A woman against
her will.

>The "ripers" uses ANYTHING that must be used to solve the problem, no
>matter is Windows, Interix, Linux or TRS-80's BASIC.
>
>> Meanwhile Oberon
>> has been an unfinished project for over a decade?
>
>Maybe. As a tool, Oberon solves a problem for his actual developers. If
>their problem is solved by a unfinished tool, so Oberon will be a
>unfinished tool until someone realizes that a finished Oberon will be a
>better problem solver (perhaps for another kind of problems).

I have the impression that Oberon V4 was the "tool" that Wirth and Gut..(sp?)
created to solve their problem.  Oberon Sys 3 is a variant began some time
afterwards and remains unfinished by the group that decided to create a
variant.

>What leads to the question : what do YOU wants to solve with Oberon? You
>think it will worth modify it to your needs? There are people around you
>(and so, with the same problems) who you can convince to help you on
>this?

The days of hacking the 8080A and Z-80 in ASM are dead.  Few remain who
program in any language for the joy of solving the puzzle.  Many who
once found joy in this pursuit no longer write any code at all.  When
they do come back to do one more program no one cares.  I mourn the loss
of the joy of programming and the loss to these people who had found
something they could enjoy.  I had thought Oberon might be something
similar but right now I'm not so sure anymore.



Charles Angelich

The Ghost in the Machine!

DOS and W31 Tech website:
http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost

Stories, poems, music, and photos website:
http://www.undercoverdesign.com/dosghost/faf