[Oberon] Re. Oberon Digest, Vol 30, Issue 24

[John Drake]

--- easlab at absamail.co.za wrote:

> Having added gmail [just as a spare/safety since
> it's inefficient to
> http around the world instead of collecting mail
> from a local server],
> and because N-O's mailer has no 'sent' list, I
> believe I haven't
> yet posted this to oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch ?
> 
> ELSE 'sorry for repeat' !
> -------------------------------------
> 
> Rene wrote:
> > Bluebottle DOES have a browser.
> 
> Is it much more 'full featured' than N-O's ver 2001,
> what about java-script and other eye candy, needed
> today ?

The Bluebottle browser supports frames and tables
and (I think) cascading style sheets.  The "out of
the box" N-O browser doesn't support any of those
things.  (Well...there's "anemic" support for 
tables, but the formatting is all wrong.)

Have you tried "WebNavigator"?  

http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/software/WebNavigator.html

It works with Native Oberon, and supports tables,
frames and CSS.  The one thing I dislike about
WebNavigator is that you don't end up with an
editable "Text" file like you do when you browse
the web with the built in browser.

There's no javascript support under any version
of Oberon that I know about.  There is a Java
VM for Bluebottle, though I've never used it.

http://bluebottle.ethz.ch/jaos/index.html

I suppose someone could use this, in conjuction
with Rhino, to implement Javascript.

http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/

Of course then there's still stuff like
"Flash" that won't work.
 
> Is it difficult to port Bluebottle aps. to N-O ?

Oh...it depends.  I managed to help get enough
XML ported from BlueBottle to N-O for Edgar to
be able to port his WebDAV program.  There are
some differences between the N-O and A-O 
compilers.  For one thing, only the alpha
version of Native Oberon supports delegates.

http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/native/WebAlpha.html

I ran into that problem during the port, but
thankfully Plugin Oberon was updated with a
later version of the N-O compiler.

> John Drake wrote:
> > You click in the space directly to the left of
> > the [Close] button.  They you type a name, such
> > as "MyModule.Mod".  Then you click the [Store]
> > button.  That's it.
> 
> This confirms what I've long suspected: you & I are
> reading
> from totally different scripts !
>  ... snip ...

Or maybe you aren't reading your script right? ;)

Seriously, I've used N-O and Plugin Oberon works
almost exactly the same.  Here's a screenshot
from Native Oberon taken from ETH's website.

http://www.oberon.ethz.ch/eve/NOVPC.png

It might be hard to read, but the [Close] and
[Store] buttons are right there where I said
they would be.  Feel free to post a
screenshot of your own system.  If you're 
seeing something different, you're probably
working from a different "mode".  Native
Oberon works in 3 modes, "classic" TUI
"desktop" TUI and "desktop gadgets".  
Plugin Oberon has all 3, but adds a fourth.  
(Seperate windows running on Windows(tm)
desktop.)
 
> > Step 3.  Set the caret in the panel by left
> > clicking on it.  You'll see a little "x".
> 
> OK I think I could 'get there' if I took the
> 'Desktops.OpenDoc'
> route.  IMO it's pointless using N-O if you want
> maximum
> eye-candy.    If you want electric windows and
> airconditioning
> you use a limousine and not a minimalist racer ?

The person who posted this SPECIFICALLY asked 
how to place widgets on a form.  This is the
only way I know how to do it.  Do you actually
have something to contribute to answer his
question, or are you limitted to just 
making (strange) complaints about my answer?

Also I don't call forms "eye candy".  I call
them usefull.  You're entitled to your 
opinion.

> IMO N-O *IS* the interface and the fact that you
> just need to
> 'look at the file's ID and "think" "open it" and it
> opens without
> needing to touch the keyboard'.

Ummmm...I ALREADY MENTIONED OPENING FILES BY
INTERCLICKING!  But the poster also asked 
about creating forms.  Anyway, do you know 
the history of Native Oberon?  If you're SO
stuck on "minimilism" then why not simply
use Oberon V4?  System 3 (the progenitor
of Native Oberon) was designed for the
purpose of supporting the so called "eye
candy" you're decrying.  Interclicking
existed before N-O was even thought of.
 
> > The latest version has a webbrowser.  The 
> > documentation needs to be updated.  
> >From which OS ?
> > Also
> > the older versions can run Oberon System 3
> > inside a window.  System 3 has (a very limited)
> > web browser also.  But you won't be able
> > to do things that require Flash or JavaScript
> > with either of them.  "Feature creep" on
> > the WWW is an problem that few alternative
> > operating systems can completely get around.
> > That's why I use a "hosted" version of
> > Oberon (either System 3 Plugin, or V4 for 
> > Windows or Aos/BlueBottle for Windows).
> 
> So what extra [wrt N-O] facilities has the
> webbrowser 
> of Aos/BlueBottle got ?

Frames and formatted tables for sure.  CSS
maybe.  (Haven't used it enough to be sure).
And WebNavigator gives you Frames and formatted
tables under N-O.

> > I can still use Firefox when I need to.
> > Really, I rarely try to browse the web
> > from Oberon, but I use the built in webbrowser 
> > to download/parse/reformat web pages.  
> > That's similair to what people do with 
> > REBOL.  (http://www.rebol.com)
> > 
> Are you able to download with a full-featured
> browser under 
> Win-OS and use N-O/Aos/BlueBottle to manipulate the
> text 
> from the download by just switching between Win &
> 'Wirthian' 
> OS ?

I'm not sure I understand your point.  Certainly
I can download and save and HTML file from Firefox
and then open it under N-O/Aos/Whatever.  

Regards,

John M. Drake

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