[Oberon] Oberon Digest, Vol 104, выпуск 22 (Guenter Dotzel)
vic
vic110 at i.ua
Wed Dec 26 19:18:41 CET 2012
26.12.2012 13:00, oberon-request at lists.inf.ethz.ch
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Oberon Digest, Vol 104, Issue 22 (Guenter Dotzel)
> 2. Re: The Oberon answer to Arduino (Jan Verhoeven)
> 3. Re: The Oberon answer to Arduino (Arnim Littek)
> 4. Re: The Oberon answer to Arduino (Jan Verhoeven)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 12:04:37 +0100
> From: Guenter Dotzel <gd at modulaware.com>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Oberon Digest, Vol 104, Issue 22
> To: oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch
> Message-ID: <50D98845.2030108 at modulaware.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I already tried recently but failed badly to encourage people on this list to only quote what is really essential to see what you are replying to.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 17:43:39 +0100
> From: Jan Verhoeven <jan at verhoeven272.nl>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] The Oberon answer to Arduino
> To: ETH Oberon and related systems <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Message-ID: <201212251743.39145.jan at verhoeven272.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Monday 24 December 2012 23:29:25 Aubrey.McIntosh at alumni.utexas.net
> wrote:
> > I am getting some hard questions on my KickStarter
>
> Which was to be expected. Easy money is gone down the drain since the
> americans sold out-of-control-mortgages to european banks. And they
> believed them!
>
> > why would someone buy my item instead of an Arduino.
>
> They won't. Your project breaths just one thing: hobbyist. Nobody will
> invest a penny in it.
>
> The arduino was at the right time in the right place among the right
> kind of people using the right kind of tools.
> I was there long time ago. And was too soon (and the wrong audience).
> You are too late. You cannot catch up with Arduino. Arduino is a mature
> system with a large installed user base. Websites, wiki's, third party
> suppliers, available on dealextreme. Yours is a nice idea, at most.
>
> The days of designing your own hardware to sell to others are over (for
> over a decade). Arduino was in the nick of time and within the right
> (braindead) audience.
> Have you seen this: http://www.futurlec.com/ET-PIC_Stamp.shtml
>
> ETT have a lot of affordable MCU circuits, off the shelf. These boards
> work. No need to debug the hardware (as is still the case in your
> Controls, I guess), just focus on the software.
>
> AVR : PIC = Cat : Dog
>
> > I suppose that I envision something like a programmers VOM. Something
> > to program chips via ICSP, step through simple logic sequences, safely
> > accept user programs to do innovative things.
>
> Ah, you mean http://www.futurlec.com/ET-ARM_Stamp_Board.shtml
>
> Try to beat that at USD 25. You don't want to know how ridiculously
> cheap airmail rates from Thailand are. http://www.ett.co.th/
>
> > So this brings to mind the question, should I go with a MIPS
> > processor?
>
> Go with Futurlec. They supply working boards for the price of the CPU
> plus the bare board.
>
> > compilers to the Component Pascal environment,
>
> Nope. There used to be a Mod51 Modula-2 compiler for the 8051. Not sure
> if they sold a single copy of it.
>
> > board that competes sort of laterally with the Arduino?
>
> Not in your life time. It's not very polite to say so, but if I would
> say the opposite I would be gambling with your money.
>
> > I think this could be the killer app that I have thought Oberon
> > needed for the past 20 years.
>
> The days of Oberon are over. If Oberon HAD days at all. It's a fun issue
> reading about and talking about. But nobody wants to program a
> controller in a safe way. A controller is programmed in assembler so
> you can do whatever you want.
> If things get hairy, you buy a creditcard sized PC and there Oberon may
> come in handy.
>
> > I hope you guys have an enlightened moment about this soon. I'd love
> > to see a community project come together.
>
> Look at embedded artists. Can you come up with something like this?
> http://embeddedartists.com/products/boards/lpc11d14_qsb.php
>
> I know the answer to my question. No single developer can. Look at the
> price and the features.
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>
> Jan Verhoeven
> http://www.verhoeven272.nl
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 12:55:27 +1300
> From: Arnim Littek <arnim at actrix.gen.nz>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] The Oberon answer to Arduino
> To: oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch
> Message-ID: <201212261255.27430.arnim at actrix.gen.nz>
> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-15"
>
> Interesting thread. I've been lurking on the Oberon list for years - this is
> the first to elicit a response.
>
> What makes Oberon attractive? The ability to go to high level programming
> with less fuss and code infrastructure than most languages. The fact that it
> can be taken to low levels is also particularly attractive to the kinds of
> folk interested in Arduinos and PICs.
>
> Some Arduinos are built on interesting micros, all Arduinos are built on
> micros better than the 8-bit PICs, which are IMHO relics of the past that
> belong in a museum. (Unfortunately I have to work with them professionally -
> cough cough)
>
> However, the PIC32 on the MIPS architecture is likely to be a completely
> different beast - I've looked at it for a long time without finding reason to go
> there, because the PIC32 engines don't do low power all that well (yet?). I
> do like MIPS, and think that would be in some senses, esp. in terms of
> teaching, a better platform than the low power ARM micros in the same space.
>
> MIPS support is wider than Microchip, fortunately. Making a decent compiler
> for MIPS is realistic, and adding Oberon to the list could be a good thing for
> many people, including those of us on this list with an embedded slant.
>
> Arnim
>
> On Tuesday 25 December 2012 11:29:25 Aubrey.McIntosh at alumni.utexas.net wrote:
> > I am getting some hard questions on my KickStarter
> > project<http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1378252804/681865516?token=bfb4
> > 0102> .
> >
> > They are basically of the form, why would someone buy my item instead of an
> > Arduino. These questions came from people I respect, whom I asked to
> > comment, so I want to have a strong and respectful answer.
> >
> > I have done some reading, and I have read some pretty testy exchanges
> > between some PIC enthusiasts and the Arduino enthusiasts. Basically, the
> > Arduino folks say that being able to use their wire it up user interface is
> > compelling and the PIC folks are in the past, and the PIC folks are saying
> > that the libraries are closed and have some critical design bugs and they
> > want an architecture where you can control stuff down to the bits.
> >
> > At one level, my project is about a teaching tool. However, just knowing
> > about the parts is not enough. I want the project to also be a nicely
> > designed tool. I suppose that I envision something like a programmers VOM.
> > Something to program chips via ICSP, step through simple logic sequences,
> > safely accept user programs to do innovative things.
> >
> > I suppose I have to add that it needs to fill a niche that the Arduino does
> > not fill.
> >
> > So this brings to mind the question, should I go with a MIPS processor?
> > They are available for about $5 each, and there is an Oberon compiler for
> > them. There is a similar situation for the SPARC, the 68HC11, and other
> > processors.
> >
> > It would be trivial to load commands in the Oberon environment to either of
> > these processors. They would stay as part of the firmware, until they are
> > freed up. There would have to be some small design change to have the code
> > in EEPROM and the volatile data in RAM, including the initialization flags.
> >
> > ....
> >
> > So, does it make more sense to use the legacy, V4 Oberon system with a few
> > communication tools thrown in to accomplish this? I am confident that I
> > can pull this off, and I have done a lot of the background work to do so.
> >
> > Does it make more sense to update these compilers to the Component Pascal
> > environment, so that there is a product with a lot of modern cross
> > compilers, a nice IDE, and a custom made board that competes sort of
> > laterally with the Arduino?
> >
> > I can envision an interface made out of something like Kepler and the
> > Hardware compiler language whose name I can't remember, to make a complete
> > system, but in the Oberon flavor.
> >
> > I think this could be the killer app that I have thought Oberon needed for
> > the past 20 years. I hope you guys have an enlightened moment about this
> > soon. I'd love to see a community project come together.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2012 02:05:32 +0100
> From: Jan Verhoeven <jan at verhoeven272.nl>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] The Oberon answer to Arduino
> To: ETH Oberon and related systems <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Message-ID: <201212260205.33026.jan at verhoeven272.nl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Wednesday 26 December 2012 00:55:27 Arnim Littek wrote:
> > Interesting thread. I've been lurking on the Oberon list for years -
> > this is the first to elicit a response.
> > Arnim
>
> And now for the $6000 question: will YOU buy it, HERE and NOW?
>
> Because that's the only thing that counts. Positive feedback does not
> work, as you might have experienced.
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groeten,
>
> Jan Verhoeven
> http://www.verhoeven272.nl
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> --
> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
> https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon
>
>
> End of Oberon Digest, Vol 104, Issue 23
> ***************************************
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