[Oberon] Oberon Digest, Vol 140, Issue 4

Mon Jan 11 14:45:07 CET 2016

>
> You've been sold a lie by the religious cult known as functional
> programmers.

"Lars O" is completely right. Disclaimer: I haven't actually learned
Haskell. But he's right.

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:00 AM, <oberon-request at lists.inf.ethz.ch> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Running a video in Oberon. (Srinivas Nayak)
>    2. Re: Functional programming style for Oberon? (Lars O)
>    3. Re: Functional programming style for Oberon? (Lars O)
>    4. Re: Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon (Lars O)
>    5. Re: Project Oberon for Mac (Lars O)
>    6. Re: Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon (Bob Walkden)
>    7. Re: Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon
>       (Douglas G. Danforth)
>    8. (no subject)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 21:56:52 +0530
> From: Srinivas Nayak <sinu.nayak2001 at gmail.com>
> To: ETH Oberon and related systems <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Subject: [Oberon] Running a video in Oberon.
> Message-ID: <5692864C.9060406 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Dear All,
>
> After a long time of acquaintance with Oberon, last week I finalized to
> read the Oberon Trilogy.
> Though I got to see many good ideas implemented in Oberon, I surprise, if
> one can run a video in it.
> Is running a video or running two videos simultaneously possible in Oberon?
>
> By Oberon, I mean the version which is described by Oberon Trilogy.
>
>
> With thanks and best regards,
>
> Yours sincerely,
> Srinivas Nayak
>
> Home: http://www.mathmeth.com/sn/
> Blog: http://srinivas-nayak.blogspot.in/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 03:24:26 -0600
> From: "Lars O" <noreply at z505.com>
> To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Functional programming style for Oberon?
> Message-ID:
>         <b58f51b23b8627910b518b1e08766b6c.squirrel at gator3286.hostgator.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> eas lab wrote:
> > Some years ago when the OO-paradigm was at it's peek, ETHO was extended
> > to handle procedure types, which could be passed as arguments.
> >
> > There's great advantages in avoiding temporary-fads, so I never exercised
> >  OOP. Now [using LEO] that it's less easy to access my old NativeOberon
> > files, I failed to find the documentation, and example uses of the
> <passing
> > PROCs as arguments>.
> >
> >
> > Where should I look?
> >
> >
> > Can Oberon procedure types facilitate the <functional/compositional>
> > style of programming?  Which is NOT a passing fad.
> >
>
> You might want to read Wirth more... Wirth has articles such as Through
> the Looking Glass.... and he seems to think Functional programming is a
> fad, but that OOP has something to offer us....
>
> Which is why his languages have OOP in them or advanced structured
> programming.
>
> Essentially OOP is just extending the type system further than before,
> whereas a lot of pathetic OOP languages use snake oil terms like "class"
> in place of type.  An object is an instance of a class. Hmm. Why not an
> instance of a type?
>
> Why is it even an object and not just a struct? a struct or record, is an
> instance of a type. Now we have no OOP, just advanced structured
> programming...
>
> Wirth seems to think OOP solves the parallelization problem better than
> functional programming if you check his articles. Through the looking
> glass might be the one, or there are others. I am simply too lazy to link
> to them and not feeling like searching for it.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 03:33:17 -0600
> From: "Lars O" <noreply at z505.com>
> To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Functional programming style for Oberon?
> Message-ID:
>         <5a7e66d1ef7738d335b184b10b0ddf03.squirrel at gator3286.hostgator.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> eas lab wrote:
> > "functional programming" is very different from our "imperative
> > programming".
> >
>
> You've been sold a lie by the religious cult known as functional
> programmers. It's not that different at all really. What ends up happening
> is all sorts of side effects are required for the functional program to
> actually do something useful, i.e. haskell Monads.... There is NO
> scientific proof whatsoever that ramming a bunch of side effects into
> monads makes it better than having the side effects like "writeln()" right
> there in a pascal program or cout() in a c program.
>
> At some point you have to deal with side effects sooner or later and
> delaying it until the last minute so that your program does absolutely
> nothing until it hits the "monads" section is kind of like shoving all
> your code into one long procedure that does anything useful, and putting
> all the code that doesn't do anything into other procedures elsehwere.
> SHOW me the science, and the studies done that prove this code is more
> reliable, less bug prone, etc.  Then there is the parallelization hype....
> But GoLang has goroutines for that, is GoLang functional?
>
> Show me the science and the studies done. Functional programmers are
> guilty of religious cult propaganda. Join our cult because we know more
> than all the other cults out there! trust our bible over at Haskell Wiki
> because it's God's word! Oh really? Show me the SCIENCE. Ask Dijkstra, he
> said something along the lines of "massaging all your code" is what
> functional programming is.
>
> Also, is the relational model, functional? If you end up actually updating
> your database with anything useful, you've got a side effect. Without side
> effects you are castrated, like a cow that has his balls cut off.
>
> Wise GoLang programmer said "I used a functional programming language that
> was doubly functional. Doubly in the fact that it actually did something."
>
> Lisp is jokingly a procedural language being fraudulently sold as
> functional.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 03:53:53 -0600
> From: "Lars O" <noreply at z505.com>
> To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon
> Message-ID:
>         <272ca1c552f748c7240c61e67d006524.squirrel at gator3286.hostgator.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Jan de Kruyf wrote:
> > Good morning David,
> >
> >
> >> or perhaps he hasn't made a final determination on CASE.
> >
> > I like to believe that too.
> > Ultimately the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Things have changed
> > before in Oberon. Sometimes on good scientific grounds, sometimes on the
> > basis of practical deliberations.
> >
> > What Wirth always _has_ argued against is needless inflation of the
> > language just because of 'feature fever'. And I agree wholeheartedly with
> > that sentiment.
> >
> > At the same time of course we are slowly getting to the point where we
> > need to carry the idea forward ourselves.
>
>
> Or how about communication? i.e. why doesn't Wirth participate in
> developer discussions regarding languages? I think we are stuck in the
> 1970's where one programmer writes a compiler and has zero feedback from
> its users, because the God programmers knows better than all his users.
> This is one area where languages like GoLang are better off - their lead
> developers actually participate in discussions, criticisms, ... they
> actually COMMUNICATE with each other. Wow. They communicate, like people.
> Is wirth an alien?
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 04:19:05 -0600
> From: "Lars O" <noreply at z505.com>
> To: "ETH Oberon and related systems" <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Project Oberon for Mac
> Message-ID:
>         <de020601ece78ed4eb61da3712c1f42e.squirrel at gator3286.hostgator.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> R. P. de Jong wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> >
> > I would like to inform you that a new "Project Oberon, Revised Edition
> > 2013" product has just been released. It is aimed to make Oberon
> > available for Mac owners who don???t want to tinker or boot into Windows
> > to get it running, like myself.
>
>
> You may want to clarify whether you mean Mac, as in the old mac or the new
> macosx.  The old macs were based on pascal, whereas the new macosx is
> objectivec based and bsd based, and such. The old macs were pascal systems
> that people didn't really know about, well possibly assembly based too.
> I'm not an expert on Macs, though, just spreading typical mac rumors... as
> it's all closed source anyway, so no one truly knows.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 10:21:03 +0000
> From: Bob Walkden <bob at web-options.com>
> To: ETH Oberon and related systems <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon
> Message-ID: <SNT406-EAS126E212E02429A7113E5B56F7C90 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On 11 Jan 2016, at 09:54, Lars O <noreply at z505.com> wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Or how about communication? i.e. why doesn't Wirth participate in
> > developer discussions regarding languages? I think we are stuck in the
> > 1970's where one programmer writes a compiler and has zero feedback from
> > its users, because the God programmers knows better than all his users.
> > This is one area where languages like GoLang are better off - their lead
> > developers actually participate in discussions, criticisms, ... they
> > actually COMMUNICATE with each other. Wow. They communicate, like people.
> > Is wirth an alien?
> >
>
> He's a teacher, and obviously a good one. That is one of the most
> effective forms of communication. Almost all of his work seems to have been
> done in collaboration with others.
>
> I was never his student, but his books are among the best computer science
> writing that I know of, and have been immeasurably useful in my own
> computing education. The clarity of his writing is quite extraordinary by
> any standards; more so when compared with most CS literature.
>
> He is one of the very best communicators I know of.
>
> B
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 02:44:12 -0800
> From: "Douglas G. Danforth" <danforth at greenwoodfarm.com>
> To: ETH Oberon and related systems <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Numerical CASE Statements in Project Oberon
> Message-ID: <5693877C.9040302 at greenwoodfarm.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> I first met Niklaus Wirth when he team taught a course in Algol-60 at
> Stanford
> in 1965 (yup, way back then).  That was my first computer science course.
> -Doug Danforth
>
>
> On 1/11/2016 2:21 AM, Bob Walkden wrote:
> > On 11 Jan 2016, at 09:54, Lars O <noreply at z505.com> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> Or how about communication? i.e. why doesn't Wirth participate in
> >> developer discussions regarding languages? I think we are stuck in the
> >> 1970's where one programmer writes a compiler and has zero feedback from
> >> its users, because the God programmers knows better than all his users.
> >> This is one area where languages like GoLang are better off - their lead
> >> developers actually participate in discussions, criticisms, ... they
> >> actually COMMUNICATE with each other. Wow. They communicate, like
> people.
> >> Is wirth an alien?
> >>
> > He's a teacher, and obviously a good one. That is one of the most
> effective forms of communication. Almost all of his work seems to have been
> done in collaboration with others.
> >
> > I was never his student, but his books are among the best computer
> science writing that I know of, and have been immeasurably useful in my own
> computing education. The clarity of his writing is quite extraordinary by
> any standards; more so when compared with most CS literature.
> >
> > He is one of the very best communicators I know of.
> >
> > B
> > --
> > Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
> > https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 10:40:13 +0000 (added by postmaster at bluewin.ch)
> Subject: [Oberon] (no subject)
> Message-ID: <563B739603D13119 at zhhdzmsp-smta14.bluewin.ch> (added by
>         postmaster at bluewin.ch)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Oberon Digest, Vol 140, Issue 4
> **************************************
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