[Oberon] Oberon-2 on FPGA

Fri Oct 28 06:15:31 CEST 2016

Joerg:

I am attracted to the idea of a common platform that RISC5 can be. It is more portable than anything else, because it can fit into almost any FPGA, except maybe the smallest ones. It is written in small amount of portable code. It can be studied and understood. RISC5 can run in Xilinx, Altera, or a device from any vendor. It can be fine tuned to a particular FPGA to boost its performance. It can be turned into hard silicon. Inside the FPGA it can be surrounded by a variety of peripherals, such as SPI, I2C, various transceivers, etc. It can be interfaced to specialized coprocessors expressed in HDL, like FFT blocks, FIR filters, image converters, etc.

I think that we need to appreciate that RISC5 is a simple CPU which can be deployed without humongous tools. (Try using Xilinx EDK to appreciate that RISC5 can live without it.) 

Two things are now needed: more powerful board or boards, and the full compiler. I can help with the former, but not with the latter. 

This is my point of view. Please feel free to disagree. 

W.

________________________________________
From: Oberon [oberon-bounces at lists.inf.ethz.ch] on behalf of Jörg Straube [joerg.straube at iaeth.ch]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 10:19 PM
To: ETH Oberon and related systems
Subject: Re: [Oberon] Oberon-2 on FPGA

Hi

HW cost is one thing, SW cost another.
If you neglect the cost of writing a compiler for a certain processor you’re right.
The idea of RISC5 is that it uses an instruction set that is more or less easy to write a compiler for.
So, instead of re-writing the compiler SW over and over again (that is the case if you want to have the same programming language on different processors) you do the opposite.
You adapt the VHDL/Verilog to kind of make the HW fit for the compiler :-)

br
Jörg

> Am 27.10.2016 um 22:28 schrieb Walter Gallegos <walter at waltergallegos.com>:
>
> Hi,
>
> A point to remark, important I think, with today available FPGAs, build a CPU with logic farm is not cheaper in term of FPGA cost, this is one of the reason for FPGA vendor add CPU cores "in silicon" inside of their FPGA.
>
> So, try to build an ARM equivalent with FPGA logic farm is out of consideration for industrial approaches. Is cheaper, several times, mount an external ARM chip.
>
> On the other hand have a core as RISC-5 could solve many problems at reasonable cost.
>
> From industrial point of view I consider more interesting invest in RISC-5 to low cost FPGAs and in a "easy customizable" ARM version of Oberon to made simple support the several flavours of ARMs available on high end FPGA and peripheral IP-Cores build into FPGA logic farm.
>
>
> El 2016-10-27 a las 15:01, Peter Matthias escribió:
>>
>>
>> Am 26.10.2016 um 22:33 schrieb Skulski, Wojciech:
>>> Peter:
>>>
>>> In principle I do not disagree.
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__opencores.org_project-2Chf-2Drisc&d=CwIGaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=H61-HSkevqNKNjjs738RGKxvbrUlPVynoRwSdyWVkvk&s=7snwVkwoid2HEgSq1jCxXM4R-ODUsn8UzTl6w3IXIak&e=
>>>
>>> The devil is in the details. The RISC-V project is aiming at a much bigger goal than N.Wirth is aiming at. NW wants "as simple as possible", what translates into a small design which can fit into a small FPGA such as LX9. The only difficulty is the amount of memory. One meg can only support a bare bone system with monochrome graphics. In order to run a meaningful Oberon System with 8-bit graphics, either Linz V4 or System 3, we need about 8 megs. It implies upgrading the memory chips. Otherwise we are fine.
>>
>> RISC5 aims at education, RISC-V also at usage. I don't see this as disadvantage. Obviously finished RISC-V CPU FPGA designs already exist.
>>
>>> RISC-V is aiming at knocking down ARM. It is a big goal. If you look at lowRISC.org, you will see that they start with Artix-100, because they are not really interested in lean low cost systems. You will see Linux on day one. You will see Chisel, Vivado, and other such high end tools. None of this is small.
>>
>> lowRISC wants to put RISC-V in silicon. I don't see it as disadvantage to _additionally_ have other CPU designs in silicon. The RISC-V people have the problem that /their/ OS requires complex support of the core.
>>
>>> Staying with RISC5 means small and affordable. Going with RISC-V means taking part in a larger crusade, whose goal is to shake up the entire industry. I think that it is a noble goal to give ARM a little bit of competition. This is why you are seeing Google pouring money into RISC-V. It is good. I appreciate that you are working on the Oberon-2 compiler for the RISC-V target. But let's not make a mistake thinking that RISC-V is meant to be small.
>>
>> What's the gate count RISC5 vs. RISC-V? Does RISC5 fit in choosen FPGA while RISC-V does not?
>>
>>> I am attracted to the idea of using RISC5 which can fit into a $20 chip. It would be nice to have the Oberon-2 compiler available for this soft core.
>>>
>>> Feel free to disagree ;-)
>>
>> If RISC5 fits in given FPGA while RISC-V does not, I fully agree. Personally I am only interested in bare metal FPGA Oberon if it would run on this box: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_mist-2Ddevel_mist-2Dboard_wiki&d=CwIGaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=H61-HSkevqNKNjjs738RGKxvbrUlPVynoRwSdyWVkvk&s=esmivtoTkjQ8IKKykbDR-jpfmkIUUdZbkrCTYPe9_-w&e=  , independently of the used instruction set. Oberon on RISC-V only exists because I think RISC-V will be used widely in future and because it is a nice intermediate step on the way from MIPS to AARCH64. The instruction set is just about in between.
>>
>> Peter
>>>
>>> W.
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Oberon [oberon-bounces at lists.inf.ethz.ch] on behalf of Peter Matthias [PeterMatthias at web.de]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 3:21 PM
>>> To: oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch
>>> Subject: [Oberon] Oberon-2 on FPGA was: Re:  Oberon for a C++ user.
>>>
>>> Am 26.10.2016 um 17:32 schrieb Skulski, Wojciech:
>>>> Meanwhile even Oberon-2 on the FPGA looks remote ;-(
>>>
>>> Can't agree here. Oberon-2 for RISC-V exists. RISC-V on FPGA exists.
>>> Someone would only have to combine the two ;-)
>>>
>>> Peter
>>> --
>>> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailman_listinfo_oberon&d=CwICAg&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=v3PHJe_0Dk6OtmqoxLWXuN5r8Vbd4eknPuQH8V4-ORA&s=7nrd1oKlzDzsaKv_9pu3UvcSSHP4As6G0Xs_SAm0HNM&e=
>>> --
>>> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailman_listinfo_oberon&d=CwIGaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=H61-HSkevqNKNjjs738RGKxvbrUlPVynoRwSdyWVkvk&s=f6oJRwkDFoGBOMOg_5ekdZXHfXey0uM8j36t2D_ep-o&e=
>>>
>> --
>> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailman_listinfo_oberon&d=CwIGaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=H61-HSkevqNKNjjs738RGKxvbrUlPVynoRwSdyWVkvk&s=f6oJRwkDFoGBOMOg_5ekdZXHfXey0uM8j36t2D_ep-o&e=
>>
>
> --
>
> Walter Daniel Gallegos
> Programmable Logic & Software
> Consultoría, Diseño, Entrenamiento.
> Montevideo, Uruguay
> EMAIL walter at waltergallegos.com
> Tel +598 26 23 44 60 | Cel +598 99 18 58 88
>
>
> El presente correo y cualquier posible archivo adjunto está dirigido únicamente
> al destinatario del mensaje y contiene información que puede ser confidencial.
> Si Ud. no es el destinatario correcto por favor notifique al remitente
> respondiendo anexando este mensaje y elimine inmediatamente el e-mail y los
> posibles archivos adjuntos al mismo de su sistema. Está prohibida cualquier
> utilización, difusión o copia de este e-mail por cualquier persona o entidad
> que no sean las específicas destinatarias del mensaje.
>
> This e-mail and any attachment is confidential and is intended solely for the
> addressee(s). If you are not intended recipient please inform the sender
> immediately, answering this e-mail and delete it as well as the attached files.
> Any use, circulation or copy of this e-mail by any person or entity that is not
> the specific addressee(s) is prohibited.
>
> --
> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailman_listinfo_oberon&d=CwIGaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=H61-HSkevqNKNjjs738RGKxvbrUlPVynoRwSdyWVkvk&s=f6oJRwkDFoGBOMOg_5ekdZXHfXey0uM8j36t2D_ep-o&e=

--
Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailman_listinfo_oberon&d=CwIGaQ&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=H61-HSkevqNKNjjs738RGKxvbrUlPVynoRwSdyWVkvk&s=f6oJRwkDFoGBOMOg_5ekdZXHfXey0uM8j36t2D_ep-o&e=