[Oberon] Modulus on negative number
Jörg
joerg.straube at iaeth.ch
Sun May 14 08:51:07 CEST 2017
Hi Chris
In his note Wirth only reasons why REM and MOD (with positive y) are different for negative x. The example he brought up is a circular buffer, where (in-out) can get negative but MOD should always be positive as it's the index in the buffer. The result of REM would be negative for negative x
There is absolutely no hint why he did not define MOD for negative y. Most probably as he didn't see a need for it.
In my previous mail I did not consider how I implemented MOD for negative y, I only mentioned what the result is / should be if it were.
br
Jörg
> Am 14.05.2017 um 05:40 schrieb Chris Burrows <chris at cfbsoftware.com>:
>
> Yes - one could if one wanted to if they were designing a programming language but there are at least two possible negative consequences they should weigh up:
>
> a) Enforcing conformity with that requirement could have a negative effect on the performance on some platforms of the much more common cases of DIV and MOD with positive y.
>
> b) The definition could be inconsistent with the definitions used in other common programming languages. The resulting confusion could be the source of additional programming errors.
>
> With reference to Modula-2, Wirth commented on DIV and MOD in a letter dated January 17, 1986 which was published in Issue #5 of Modus News, the Newsletter for the Modula-2 Users Association. You can download a copy from here:
>
> http://www.cfbsoftware.com/Modula2/Modus.aspx
>
> With reference to Oberon-07, note that DIV is NOT defined for *any* x and y. DIV (like MOD) is only defined for positive y in Oberon 07. The quotient is constrained similarly to the remainder:
>
> <quote>
> The operators DIV and MOD apply to integer operands only. Let q = x DIV y, and r = x MOD y.
> Then quotient q and remainder r are defined by the equation
>
> x = q*y + r 0 <= r < y
>
> </quote>
>
> Consequently, the Astrobe for Cortex-M and Project Oberon RISC5 compilers will result in a 'divisor must be > 0' or 'bad divisor' compilation error message for both statements in the following example:
>
> i := 10 DIV (-2);
> i := -10 DIV (-2);
>
> Regards,
> Chris
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Oberon [mailto:oberon-bounces at lists.inf.ethz.ch] On Behalf Of
>> Claudio Nieder
>> Sent: Saturday, 13 May 2017 11:11 PM
>> To: ETH Oberon and related systems
>> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Modulus on negative number
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> One could say that r must be within 0 and y, or to state it more
>> formally
>>
>> 0<=r<y for y>0
>> y<r<=0 for y<0.
>>
>> This gives the possibility to have a remainder also for negative y so
>> that the condition x = (x DIV y) * y + (x MOD y) is satisfied.
>>
>> 1 DIV -12 = -1; 1 MOD -12=-11 satisfying the condition 1 = (-1) * (-
>> 12) + (-11)
>>
>> -1 DIV -12 = 0; -1 MOD 12= -1 satisfying the condition -1 = 0 * (-12)
>> + (-1)
>>
>> Without this extension when y is negative then x DIV y is defined but
>> x MOD y not.
>>
>> But as you say, in his definitions of Oberon as well as of Modula-2
>> by stating 0<= r < y Wirth actually created this situation where DIV
>> is defined for any x and y but MOD is not.
>>
>> claudio
>>
>>> On 13. May. 2017, at 14:26, Chris Burrows <chris at cfbsoftware.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> 'completeness'? 'should be'? That statement needs some sort of
>> context to have any validity.
>>>
>>> It is not true in the context of Oberon-07. As Peter has already
>> stated - results for negative divisors are not defined in the
>> language. The Astrobe for Cortex-M and Project Oberon RISC5 compilers
>> will give you 'bad modulus' compilation errors for both statements in
>> the following example:
>>>
>>> VAR
>>> i: INTEGER;
>>> ...
>>> ...
>>> i := 1 MOD (-12);
>>> i := -1 MOD (-12);
>>>
>>> NOTE: If the parentheses are omitted they do not even parse as
>> valid expressions.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Chris Burrows
>>> CFB Software
>>> http://www.astrobe.com/RISC5
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Oberon [mailto:oberon-bounces at lists.inf.ethz.ch] On Behalf
>> Of
>>>> J rg
>>>> Sent: Saturday, 13 May 2017 6:43 PM
>>>> To: ETH Oberon and related systems
>>>> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Modulus on negative number
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> Just for completeness, the result should be
>>>> 1 MOD -12 = -11
>>>> -1 MOD -12 = -1
>>>>
>>>> J rg
>>>>
>>>>> Am 13.05.2017 um 10:12 schrieb Peter Matthias
>>>> <PeterMatthias at web.de>:
>>>>>
>>>>> Agreed. However, -1 MOD -12 or 1 MOD -12 is not defined in
>> Oberon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 12.05.2017 um 22:43 schrieb Aubrey McIntosh:
>>>>>> for -1 MOD 12, the mathematically correct answers which are
>>>>>> consistent with the language report, are q=-1, r=11.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This definition works very well, for example, to implement wrap
>>>>>> around strip chart displays.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, May 12, 2017 at 2:28 PM, Peter Matthias
>>>> <PeterMatthias at web.de
>>>>>> <mailto:PeterMatthias at web.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Warming up the thread to give supposedly correct answer:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 16.02.2017 um 00:00 schrieb Peter Matthias:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 15.02.2017 um 04:21 schrieb Srinivas Nayak:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Recently I come across modulus on a negative number.
>>>>>> Will it produce a negative number or positive?
>>>>>> Someone says both are correct!
>>>>>> http://stackoverflow.com/a/4403556
>>>>>> <http://stackoverflow.com/a/4403556>
>>>>>> Which one is mathematically correct?
>>>>>> Surprisingly different languages calculate it
>>>> differently even!
>>>>>> What is Oberon's way?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The theory was already answered. In practice, all compiler
>>>>>> implementations I used (native X86, Shark, MIPS), give
>>>> wrong
>>>>>> result when
>>>>>> both, divident and divisor are negative. I fixed it just
>>>>>> yesterday for
>>>>>> all non x86 versions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I should have read the language report before making such
>>>> claims.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oberon Report says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The operators DIV and MOD apply to integer operands only.
>> They
>>>> are
>>>>>> related by the following formulas defined for any dividend x
>>>> and
>>>>>> positive divisors y:
>>>>>> x = (x DIV y) * y + (x MOD y)
>>>>>> 0 = (x MOD y) < y"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oberon07-Report says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The operators DIV and MOD apply to integer operands only. Let
>>>> q = x
>>>>>> DIV y, and r = x MOD y.
>>>>>> Then quotient q and remainder r are defined by the equation
>>>>>> x = q*y + r 0 <= r < y"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Last statement obviously cannot be met if y is negative.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So in short: Don't use DIV/MOD for negative divisors as the
>>>> result
>>>>>> is not defined.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From the implemtation point of view this perfectly makes sense
>>>> as
>>>>>> negative divisors are seldom used and correction for DIV of
>> the
>>>>>> usually stupid hardware implementation only takes 3 additional
>>>>>> instructions compared to at least 6 for a complete definition.
>>>>>> Simple SHIFT/AND instructions for power of 2 divisors easily
>>>>>> outwight these 3 additional instructions.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>
>>>> mailing
>>>>>> list for ETH Oberon and related systems
>>>>>> https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon
>>>>>> <https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Aubrey McIntosh, Ph.D.
>>>>>> 1502 Devon Circle
>>>>>> Austin TX 78723
>>>>>> (512) 348-7401
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related
>>>>>> systems https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related
>>>>> systems https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon
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