[Oberon] Software Tracking Project

Wed Jan 31 08:15:09 CET 2018

Jan

Yes and no. You are right that it is a spiderweb of modules. But isn’t Windows that as well?
From a practical standpoint, the four modules of the inner core (Kernel, FileDir, Files, Modules) are different from the rest.
These four modules can not be unloaded dynamically. If you want to change something there you have to link them statically into the boot area.

br
Jörg

> Am 31.01.2018 um 07:28 schrieb Jan de Kruyf <jan.de.kruyf at gmail.com>:
> 
> Wojciech,
> 1. Any Oberon implementation or application coming from a university has been by definition a research project. Just to see how far the boundaries could be pushed in a certain direction.
> So I guess that is perpendicular on standardised easy portable  application software.
> 
> 2. The boundary between OS and application is non existent in Oberon. It is rather a spiderweb of modules. The web will over time extend itself into any direction depending on the need of the user / prograrmmer. So there is no OS API, but there are Module interfaces everywhere for you to use if you find a use for them.
> 
> 3. So it follows that you hardly can port Modules, but you certainly can port brilliant ideas from the one system into any other.
> 
> ("To be led up the garden-path" is an expression that describes Oberon very well.)
> 
> j.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Skulski, Wojciech <skulski at pas.rochester.edu <mailto:skulski at pas.rochester.edu>> wrote:
> Joerg:
> 
>   I agree with you that both V4 and S3 are not applications. I also agree that Oberon System is unique in that the distinction is blurry. Not "a little", but very much.
> 
> Looking at Windows, MS Word is an application. Under Linux, nano is an application. Under Oberon System, is Edit an application or part of an OS? On one hand, it is a wordprocessor. So it is an app. On the other hand, an Element like Sisiphus is running inside Edit. So Edit is a framework which is providing an API. So it looks like a part of an OS. Now we can start to argue, which category Edit is belonging to.
> 
> From a conventional Linux standpoint, it is fair to say that parts of the kernel belong to the OS, while programs running in the user address space are apps. This distinction does not apply to the classic Oberon, where there is only one address space. We can say that everything is an application, or everything is an OS. We can also say that command modules are apps, while the imported modules are services. However, the top most command modules can get imported into some even more topmost modules, in principle ad infinitum. I am not sure, where to draw the boundary between the OS and the apps, or between servers and clients. I am not sure if trying to draw such a line is productive.
> 
> My point was that both the ETH and V4 low level modules were intentionally quite similar to the original Oberon System modules. If so then it should be possible to plant both the ETH and Linz module trees on a common set of low level modules. It should also be possible to use ETH Edit to host Elements and Dialogs. These are the most important parts of V4.
> 
> In my opinion, the benefit would be to mend the rift which somehow developed over the years between the two systems. I am not sure why the rift has developed, but I suspect it was not beneficial to the community.
> 
> W.
> ________________________________________
> From: Jörg [joerg.straube at iaeth.ch <mailto:joerg.straube at iaeth.ch>]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:07 PM
> To: Skulski, Wojciech; 'ETH Oberon and related systems'
> Subject: RE: [Oberon] Software Tracking Project
> 
> Wojtek
> 
> V4 and S3 are OSes not applications, although this differentiation is a
> little blurry in Oberon.
> In today's world, one could call your idea of running an OS on top of
> another OS virtualization.
> Or one could take the idea of Linux, with a common kernel and different OS
> flavors on top.
> 
> In the operating system A2 (aka Bluebottle, aka AOS, written in
> ActiveOberon) it's possible to start the legacy Oberon OS as separate task
> in A2.
> 
> So, your idea is well possible (in SW almost everything is possible :-) but
> needs quite some work.
> 
> br
> Jörg
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Skulski, Wojciech [mailto:skulski at pas.rochester.edu <mailto:skulski at pas.rochester.edu>]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 5:23 PM
> To: joerg.straube at iaeth.ch <mailto:joerg.straube at iaeth.ch>; ETH Oberon and related systems
> <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>>
> Subject: RE: [Oberon] Software Tracking Project
> 
> Joerg:
> 
>   do not you think that V4 and S3 can coexist on top of the same lower level
> layer? You could possibly launch either one or the other, or perhaps even
> both, though it would make little sense.
> 
> Merging the two could possibly end the rift which was dividing the community
> for reasons which were hard to grasp from a distance.
> 
> W.
> ________________________________________
> From: Oberon [oberon-bounces at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:oberon-bounces at lists.inf.ethz.ch>] on behalf of Jörg
> [joerg.straube at iaeth.ch <mailto:joerg.straube at iaeth.ch>]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 9:35 AM
> To: 'ETH Oberon and related systems'
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Software Tracking Project
> 
> Hi
> 
> Isn't this request like: I would like to see Linux and Android merged?
> They are similar: same language, same compiler (perhaps even same CPU, same
> Kernel). But some of the APIs differ.
> 
> br
> Jörg
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Oberon [mailto:oberon-bounces at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:oberon-bounces at lists.inf.ethz.ch>] On Behalf Of
> Treutwein Bernhard
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 2:35 PM
> To: 'oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>' <oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch>>
> Subject: Re: [Oberon] Software Tracking Project
> 
> >I would like to see V4 and ETH System merged.
> 
> I think this is an excellent idea.
> 
> Maybe UV4 would be a good starting point:
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sourceforge.net_project
> s_oberon_&d=DwIFAw&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpw
> aGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=nqDS5CyXZIYdcOmlMrjf7C4H8TsPIxpkqLljZCQ
> 9wns&s=mdw5q5iL8zSP_3yaqyCEu0f1Qh2Sr6YOoIrvCsDEIrc&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sourceforge.net_projects_oberon_&d=DwIFAw&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=nqDS5CyXZIYdcOmlMrjf7C4H8TsPIxpkqLljZCQ9wns&s=mdw5q5iL8zSP_3yaqyCEu0f1Qh2Sr6YOoIrvCsDEIrc&e=>
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sourceforge.net_p_obero
> n_wiki_Home_&d=DwIFAw&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_z
> LpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=nqDS5CyXZIYdcOmlMrjf7C4H8TsPIxpkqLlj
> ZCQ9wns&s=BCyGCZty5GWxx7gh6dZCSwsvaF--hofW42_t0BG1DSM&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__sourceforge.net_p_oberon_wiki_Home_&d=DwIFAw&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=nqDS5CyXZIYdcOmlMrjf7C4H8TsPIxpkqLljZCQ9wns&s=BCyGCZty5GWxx7gh6dZCSwsvaF--hofW42_t0BG1DSM&e=>
> 
> --
>   Bernhard
> 
> --
> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch> mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailm
> an_listinfo_oberon&d=DwIFAw&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=
> uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=nqDS5CyXZIYdcOmlMrjf7C4H8TsPIx
> pkqLljZCQ9wns&s=coZmt0X5ozfRQnjkEK2IiCurdoMPAHxU6iMuKVZ0Om8&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailman_listinfo_oberon&d=DwIFAw&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=nqDS5CyXZIYdcOmlMrjf7C4H8TsPIxpkqLljZCQ9wns&s=coZmt0X5ozfRQnjkEK2IiCurdoMPAHxU6iMuKVZ0Om8&e=>
> 
> --
> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch> mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailm
> an_listinfo_oberon&d=DwIFAw&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=
> uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=nqDS5CyXZIYdcOmlMrjf7C4H8TsPIx
> pkqLljZCQ9wns&s=coZmt0X5ozfRQnjkEK2IiCurdoMPAHxU6iMuKVZ0Om8&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__lists.inf.ethz.ch_mailman_listinfo_oberon&d=DwIFAw&c=kbmfwr1Yojg42sGEpaQh5ofMHBeTl9EI2eaqQZhHbOU&r=uUiA_zLpwaGJIlq-_BM9w1wVOuyqPwHi3XzJRa-ybV0&m=nqDS5CyXZIYdcOmlMrjf7C4H8TsPIxpkqLljZCQ9wns&s=coZmt0X5ozfRQnjkEK2IiCurdoMPAHxU6iMuKVZ0Om8&e=>
> 
> --
> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch <mailto:Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch> mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
> https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon <https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon>
> 
> --
> Oberon at lists.inf.ethz.ch mailing list for ETH Oberon and related systems
> https://lists.inf.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/oberon

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.inf.ethz.ch/pipermail/oberon/attachments/20180131/70a8e4d6/attachment-0001.html>